Testimony of Dr. William R. Stayton, psychologist
March 21, 1996
192
1 (Witness excused.)
2 MR. HANSEN: Your Honors, there are two additional
3 witnesses that we -- whose declarations we have proffered.
4 We were advised -- that is, Christine Soto and Hunter Allen.
5 We were advised by the Government that they neither wish to
6 depose nor to cross-examine either of those witnesses. They
7 are both young people who are members of Youth Arts News, the
8 E-zine that Ms. Warren runs. Because of their age we have
9 not brought them to Philadelphia. We can make them available
10 if the Court wishes, but at this point I'd like to move their
11 declarations into evidence. The declarations were previously
12 filed. They were attested to on March 7, 1996.
13 JUDGE SLOVITER: We'll hear from the Government.
14 MS. RUSSOTTO: We have no objection, your Honor.
15 JUDGE SLOVITER: Then that will be admitted. Is
16 that it?
17 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: I have no desire to have them
18 here.
19 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. We have no desire to proceed
20 with them. Thank you. No questions from the Court.
21 MR. HANSEN: Thank you, your Honor. In that case,
22 the plaintiffs' next witness is Dr. William Stayton.
23 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Good afternoon. Will you please
24 state and spell your name for the record?
25 THE WITNESS: William --
193
1 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Will you please move over and
2 stand close to the mike?
3 THE WITNESS: William ...
4 MR. HANSEN: It appears we have one minor
5 housekeeping problem. If we might have just one moment, your
6 Honors?
7 JUDGE SLOVITER: Of course.
8 (Pause in proceedings.)
9 MR. COPPOLINO: Your Honor, we would just note for
10 the record that the witness is being called out of order. We
11 had been told a different order, and we will not object, but
12 we had prepared for a different witness for this time, and
13 now since we have the burden to go forward with the cross-
14 examination, we have to change our preparation.
15 JUDGE SLOVITER: Let me just ask you, are you
16 prepared to go forward, or did you -- because I gather this
17 witness is from another city.
18 MR. HANSEN: This witness is from Philadelphia.
19 JUDGE SLOVITER: Oh, he's --
20 MR. HANSEN: He has a 4:15 class which I'm --
21 JUDGE SLOVITER: He has a 4:15 class --
22 MR. HANSEN: Or a 4:30 class which I'm trying to
23 help him with, if possible.
24 JUDGE DALZELL: Mr. Hansen and Mr. Ennis, in view of
25 the constraints on Dr. Stayton's time as well as Mr.
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1 Coppolino's concerns, Mr. Croneberger is here, is he not?
2 MR. HANSEN: He is.
3 JUDGE DALZELL: And you said to us before we started
4 that the Government, at least at that time, had not intended
5 to cross-examine him. I certainly have some questions. I
6 believe my colleagues do. Could we use the time productively
7 with Mr. Croneberger?
8 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Croneberger is Mr. Ennis' witness,
9 your Honor. I'll let him respond.
10 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay.
11 MR. ENNIS: Your Honor, that would be fine with the
12 ALA plaintiffs. But my understanding is the Government was
13 expecting the next witness to be Donna Hoffman. And I don't
14 care --
15 JUDGE DALZELL: But she'll go on tomorrow, I mean,
16 so the Government surely isn't prejudiced by that.
17 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, that's fine. If the Court
18 would prefer Mr. Croneberger now, that's fine with us.
19 JUDGE DALZELL: Just so we use the time
20 productively, that's all.
21 JUDGE SLOVITER: Is that all right with Mr. Stayton,
22 Dr. Stayton?
23 MR. HANSEN: Well, I would like Dr. Stayton not to
24 have to come back tomorrow. I'd like to --
25 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, counsel is not prepared to
195
1 cross-examine him based on this.
2 MR. COPPOLINO: We don't object, we'll go forward.
3 JUDGE DALZELL: What's that?
4 MR. COPPOLINO: It's out of order, but we'd rather
5 go forward with Mr. Stayton now than any other --
6 JUDGE DALZELL: All right. Well, okay, fine. We're
7 just trying to be accommodating to you.
8 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Will you now state your name?
9 (Much laughter.)
10 JUDGE SLOVITER: Touche.
11 JUDGE DALZELL: Touche.
12 THE WITNESS: It is still William R. Stayton, S-T-A-
13 Y-T-O-N. (Laughter.)
14 COURTROOM DEPUTY: And would you please raise your
15 right hand?
16 WILLIAM R. STAYTON, Sworn.
17 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Please be seated.
18 MR. COPPOLINO: Your Honors, I move into evidence
19 the declaration of William R. Stayton, attested to on
20 March 14, 1996, and previously filed as his direct testimony.
21 JUDGE SLOVITER: Is there any objection by the
22 Government?
23 MS. RUSSOTTO: No objection, your Honor, subject to
24 cross-examination, of course.
25 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, I have a question for Mr.
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1 Hansen. What exactly -- I assume that Dr. Stayton is being
2 offered as an expert witness?
3 MR. HANSEN: That's correct, your Honor.
4 JUDGE DALZELL: And it's not exactly clear to me the
5 precise areas of expertise he's being offered for.
6 MR. HANSEN: He's being offered for the value, to
7 testify concerning the value of material about sex for
8 minors.
9 JUDGE DALZELL: The value of material about sex --
10 MR. HANSEN: For minors.
11 JUDGE SLOVITER: Social utility, in other words?
12 MR. HANSEN: Yes, that's correct, your Honor.
13 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. Now, having specified that,
14 Ms. Russotto, do you have any voir dire that you'd like to
15 ask?
16 MS. RUSSOTTO: Not at this time, your Honor,
17 although we would ask some latitude to explore the bases for
18 Mr. Stayton's opinions about the availability and
19 appropriateness of certain sexually explicit material for
20 minors.
21 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. But you don't object to him
22 offering opinions in this area of expertise?
23 MS. RUSSOTTO: No, I do not.
24 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay, fine. That's all we needed to
25 know for now. Of course you can ask those questions.
197
1 MR. HANSEN: Thank you, your Honor.
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. RUSSOTTO:
4 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Stayton.
5 A Good afternoon.
6 Q Dr. Stayton, you are a psychologist and sex therapist
7 here in the Philadelphia area; is that right?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q And your current practice includes about 20 clients a
10 week; is that right?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And your practice is now almost exclusively adult
13 couples; is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q You have maybe one or two minors, right?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q But mostly adults.
18 A That is correct.
19 Q In preparation for your testimony here today, you have
20 reviewed the affidavits that have been filed by the
21 plaintiffs in the ACLU action; is that right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And I believe you've also reviewed some information from
24 the Web sites of two of the ACLU plaintiffs; is that correct?
25 A That's correct.
198
1 Q And those would be Stop Prison Rape, that's one?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And the Safer Sex Page?
4 A Yes.
5 Q From what you've read of the plaintiffs' materials, the
6 information that they've made available on the Internet
7 covers a variety of issues regarding human sexuality, doesn't
8 it?
9 A Yes, it does.
10 Q For example, the Safer Sex Page includes information
11 about safer -- safe sex practices, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And it of course talks about sexual activities in that
14 context as well, correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And these would include things like information about
17 conception, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Information about birth control?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Safer sex?
22 A Yes.
23 Q AIDS?
24 A Practices, mm-hmm.
25 Q Yes, safer sex practices, yes.
199
1 A Mm-hmm.
2 Q And the Stop Prisoner Rape page would contain information
3 about -- explicit information about prison rape, correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And the Critical Path AIDS Project as we've heard from
6 Mr. Kuromiya contains information about AIDS as well, right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And you've reviewed all of those, correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Now, in your view, these discussions of sex and sexuality
11 that we've been talking about, that's information that is
12 valuable for minors to have, correct?
13 A I believe so, yes.
14 Q And it's information that you believe is valuable because
15 of its educational value, right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you'd agree, wouldn't you, that it's important to
18 provide minors with accurate information about sex and
19 sexuality, right?
20 A Right.
21 Q In fact, providing accurate information about sex and
22 sexuality can actually prevent minors from making bad choices
23 about those issues, right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q So providing inaccurate information, inaccurate
200
1 information about sex and human sexuality, that could
2 actually be harmful to minors, couldn't it?
3 A Giving them inaccurate --
4 Q Giving them inaccurate information.
5 A Could not be helpful, right.
6 Q Right. Now, Dr. Stayton, you're familiar with Playboy
7 Magazine, aren't you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you're familiar with Penthouse, right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And Hustler?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you're aware that these magazines contain sexually
14 explicit images, mostly of women, correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q In your opinion, viewing these types of sexually explicit
17 pictures is not harmful to minors, right?
18 A I believe that's true.
19 Q But you'd still prefer that your children didn't see
20 them, right?
21 A Playboy and Penthouse and --
22 Q Yes.
23 A No, it doesn't matter to me.
24 Q It doesn't matter to you? Dr. Stayton, do you recall
25 that I took your deposition --
201
1 A Right.
2 Q -- on a Sunday afternoon, correct?
3 MS. RUSSOTTO: I'm going to approach with a copy.
4 JUDGE DALZELL: Yes.
5 BY MS. RUSSOTTO:
6 Q And would you turn to page 58 of that deposition, please?
7 A Mm-hmm.
8 Q Do you recall that we were discussing some films that you
9 use in your therapy class, correct? You recall that we were
10 discussing some films --
11 A Yes, yes.
12 Q And I had asked you whether or not -- and you had said
13 that it would be valuable to minors to show those types -- to
14 show the films in a -- I'm sorry, let me strike that.
15 I had asked you if it was valuable to show certain
16 types of sexually explicit films to minors, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And I had also asked you whether or not it was important
19 that those films be shown in an educational context, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Okay. And I asked you, quote, and this is at the bottom
22 of page 58, "What if it were not shown in an educational kind
23 of context?" And you answered me, "Most often it is. Most
24 often -- you know, kids get together and they show their
25 magazines and that stuff, and they show stuff I wouldn't want
202
1 my kid to see, but they see it. I would much rather it come
2 in the context of my being able to interpret it and talk
3 about it and answer questions about it. I think children
4 often see material I would prefer my kids not to see, but I
5 don't have any control over that."
6 So this is material you would prefer your kids
7 didn't see, isn't it?
8 A There is material I would prefer them not to see. That's
9 not a blanket that I don't want them to see any of the
10 material or the material that you mentioned from like
11 Playboy.
12 Q Dr. Stayton --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- do you have a set of the defendant's exhibits at the
15 desk? They should be at your feet there, I'm sorry. Let me
16 ask you, the second volume, the one that should be marked 46
17 to 89.
18 A Okay.
19 MR. HANSEN: If I might, your Honor, plaintiffs have
20 not been supplied a copy with these exhibits.
21 MS. RUSSOTTO: Oh, I'm sorry.
22 BY MS. RUSSOTTO:
23 Q May I ask you to take a look at Defendant's Exhibits 70
24 through 77.
25 A Okay.
203
1 Q And you recall that -- well, take a look at them and let
2 me know when you've reviewed them.
3 A I've seen these.
4 Q Okay. You recall that these are the same photographs
5 that we talked about during your deposition on Sunday,
6 correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Okay. Now, you would agree, wouldn't you, that these are
9 images of nude women in a variety of sexually explicit poses,
10 correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q And you'd agree also, wouldn't you, that these images do
13 not depict a healthy view of women as healthy sexual beings,
14 right?
15 A I don't know about the word "as healthy sexual beings."
16 I don't know anything about them --
17 Q Well, let me rephrase it then. You would agree, wouldn't
18 you, that these images don't depict a healthy view of women
19 as sexual beings, do you? Isn't that right?
20 A I think the women are often exploited, yes.
21 Q And you'd also agree that pictures like these reflect a
22 socialization process that use women as sex objects, right?
23 A They can, but it's only one part of all the input that
24 they get.
25 Q You would also agree, wouldn't you, that these sexually
204
1 suggestive images of women do not depict real life? They're
2 not representative of the real world.
3 A It depends upon whose world. If a person is -- this is
4 all they see, then it would be a part of their real world in
5 terms of what they viewed. It's not a part of their real
6 world in terms of I don't know what kind of input they get
7 from other sources.
8 Q All right, well, let me go back to your deposition
9 testimony --
10 A Sure.
11 Q -- on page 127. You recall that we were talking about
12 these very images. And I asked you what you meant, and you
13 said that this fits into the socialization process. I'm
14 sorry, I'm at line 10 on 127.
15 A Right.
16 Q What do you mean, you said this fits into the
17 socialization process? What do you mean by that and by
18 "this" you're talking about the exhibits. You said, "The
19 exhibits, I want my children or all children to have a
20 healthy view of women as sexual beings and of men as sexual
21 beings.
22 "Question: What is it about those pictures that you
23 think may not promote a healthy view of women and men as
24 healthy sexual beings?
25 "Well, it's so typical of the way people are
205
1 socialized that women are like sex objects. You know, this
2 just doesn't depict real life."
3 That's accurate, right?
4 A Yes, that's accurate.
5 Q And yet you don't believe that exposing minors to these
6 types of sexually explicit images is harmful to them, do you?
7 A Not in and of itself, no.
8 Q And you don't think that minors would be socialized to
9 view women as sex objects by exposure to these kinds of
10 images?
11 A No. They're going to get that from other parts of their
12 input, from family, society, peer group.
13 Q And you don't believe, though, that these pictures would
14 have any -- would be a factor in socializing people to view
15 women as sex objects?
16 A In and of itself, no. As a part of a total kind of
17 input, it's a factor.
18 Q And you don't believe that minors viewing these images
19 would be misled into believing that they do depict real life,
20 do you?
21 A Not if they're getting different information from outside
22 of these.
23 Q So in your view there's no harm in allowing a ten-year-
24 old to see these kinds of sexually explicit images?
25 A There's nothing inherently, right.
206
1 Q I'm sorry, there's nothing inherently harmful about those
2 images?
3 A Harmful about these images.
4 Q In your view there's no harm in allowing an eight-year-
5 old to see those images, is there?
6 A There's nothing inherently harmful about sex.
7 Q I'm not -- well, okay. I asked you about whether there
8 was anything inherently harmful --
9 A About these pictures.
10 Q -- about viewing those images.
11 A No, there's nothing inherently harmful.
12 Q And you wouldn't have a problem if a six-year-old was
13 exposed to those kinds of sexually explicit images, would
14 you?
15 A No. I would want to be the one to give my value system
16 as I worked with my six-year-old or a six-year-old. But
17 there's nothing inherently harmful that would hurt a six-
18 year-old. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people have
19 seen pictures like this and never been harmed.
20 Q Well, Dr. Stayton, you've never actually done any
21 research into whether or not minors viewing these kind of
22 pictures that can be downloaded from the Internet is harmful
23 to them, have you?
24 A No, this is not a part of my research, right.
25 Q And, Dr. Stayton, we were discussing a moment ago some
207
1 films that you use in your sex therapy. And I believe that
2 you had told me during your deposition that those films
3 involved depictions of sexual intercourse; is that right?
4 A Some of them do. I -- a pharmaceutical company 20 years
5 ago made a series of sex therapy films for us using real
6 people in real situations, and I use these with couples. And
7 it starts with -- it's really a process of helping them to
8 become sexually functional through offering them ways of
9 pleasuring their partner, first non-genitally and then
10 genitally and then through ways of having intercourse.
11 Q And these are sexually explicit films, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And they do depict explicitly acts of sexual intercourse.
14 A They depict -- there's a film that does, when we get to
15 that part of the therapy process. But in the beginning it's
16 how to do a face caress. How to caress a person's body and
17 give pleasure. Things that, you know, lead up to being a
18 good lover through intercourse.
19 Q And these films also contain explicit depictions of oral
20 sex as well, don't they?
21 A We have films that do. It's not a part of the regular
22 process. A lot of couples will ask about oral sex, and we
23 then can show them a film that talks about oral sex, tells
24 them whether it's healthy or how it's healthy, et cetera, so
25 that they can be instructed.
208
1 Q And these films that you've been talking about that do
2 have the explicit depictions of sexual activity, you believe
3 that it would be -- that it would not be harmful to show
4 those to minors, right?
5 A No, right.
6 Q And so you believe it would be appropriate to show those
7 films -- or would not be harmful to show those films to a 12-
8 year-old.
9 A Right, or if a 12-year-old saw them. I don't think it
10 would do harm.
11 Q And it would be all right --
12 A I don't think I would take a show 12-year-olds, in fact,
13 it's against the law. I wouldn't do it.
14 Q But you think it would do no harm if they did see it?
15 A Absolutely it wouldn't.
16 Q And you think it would be appropriate for a 10-year-old
17 to see those films?
18 A Yeah. My five-year-old saw them, when he was five years
19 old.
20 Q Now, Dr. Stayton, you are familiar, are you not, with the
21 Attorney General's Commission on Pornography Final Report
22 dated July 1986, correct?
23 A Yes, I am.
24 Q Okay. Would you please turn to Defendant's Exhibit 80?
25 A Yes.
209
1 Q Would you please turn to page 343 of that study.
2 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: What page?
3 MS. RUSSOTTO: 343, your Honor.
4 BY MS. RUSSOTTO:
5 Q And just so the record is clear, this is a section of the
6 Attorney General's Commission on Pornography Final Report,
7 July 1986. It's from the main body of the report. It deals
8 with nonviolent and nondegrading sexually explicit materials.
9 Now, on page 343 of the report the Commission begins
10 discussing the potential harm to children from exposure to
11 pornography, isn't that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And the Commission in the first sentence states, and
14 looking at the first full paragraph of 343, "Perhaps the most
15 significant potential harm in this category is with respect
16 to children. We all agree that at least much, probably most,
17 and maybe even all material in this category, regardless of
18 whether it is harmful when used by adults only is harmful
19 when it falls into the hands of children."
20 Do you agree with that statement, Dr. Stayton?
21 A I do not.
22 Q Okay, let me ask you to turn to page 344. And again I'm
23 looking at the first full paragraph. "We have little doubt,"
24 the Commission states, "We have little doubt that much of
25 this material does find its way into the hands of children,
210
1 and to the extent that it does, we all agree that it is
2 harmful." Do you agree with that conclusion of the
3 Commission?
4 A I do not agree.
5 Q And in the next sentence the Commission states, "We may
6 disagree about the extent to which people should as adults be
7 tolerate" -- I'm sorry. "We may disagree about the extent to
8 which people should as adults be tolerated in engaging in
9 sexual practices that differ from the norm, but we all agree
10 about the question of the desirability of exposing children
11 to most of this material. And on that our unanimous
12 agreement is that it is undesirable."
13 Do you agree with that statement?
14 A I do not agree with that statement.
15 Q And then skipping down one sentence the Commission
16 states, "We may disagree among ourselves about the extent to
17 which the effect on children should justify large scale
18 restrictions for that reason alone, but again we all agree
19 that if the question is simply harm and not the question of
20 regulation by law that material in this category is, with few
21 exceptions, generally harmful to the extent it finds its way
22 into the hands of children."
23 Do you agree with that statement, Dr. Stayton?
24 A I do not agree with that statement.
25 MS. RUSSOTTO: I don't have anything further.
211
1 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. Is there any redirect?
2 MR. HANSEN: Yes, please, your Honor.
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. HANSEN:
5 Q Dr. Stayton, the Government began by asking you about the
6 composition of your current clinical practice and its
7 relationship to minors. I'd like to have you explain what
8 your experience has been in terms of sex education
9 specifically with respect to minors.
10 A I'm a clergyperson. And I started out my first six years
11 through seminary and after as a youth minister, where I had
12 charge of the entire program of a fairly large church. I
13 then had my own parish which was in Gloucester,
14 Massachusetts, and there I also had the young people, as well
15 as being the pastor of the church. It was a small church.
16 And they asked me if I would have a sex education course for
17 them. I took what I had done with my youth at the church
18 where I was a youth minister in the area of sex education and
19 built a program where within a year I was going all over New
20 England setting up sex education courses for churches and
21 synagogues throughout the area.
22 I then started teaching on the seminary level and in
23 a nursing school, and there they asked me if I would teach
24 human sexuality education. On the basis of this, getting
25 more into it, I decided I might as well go all the way and
212
1 really get into this field, and I received a postdoctoral
2 fellowship to the University of Pennsylvania to spend a year
3 doing research on the interface between religion and
4 sexuality. I was hired at the end of that as the chief of
5 family life and sex education for the Department of
6 Psychiatry, Marriage Council of Philadelphia, part of the
7 University of Pennsylvania.
8 And there I began working with churches throughout
9 the country in developing human sexuality education. I
10 actually taught for a year the juniors and seniors at the
11 Pennsylvania School for the Deaf and trained their teachers
12 to teach human sexuality education. And in the last 25 years
13 since I started at Penn and I'm still there, I speak a lot at
14 churches to their youth and to their congregations about
15 human sexuality education.
16 Q Have you also worked with schools with respect to human
17 sexuality education?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Would you discuss that, please?
20 MR. HANSEN: Your Honors, Dr. Stayton's curriculum
21 vitae is Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 which has previously been
22 admitted into evidence.
23 A Well, first of all, I worked with my own children's
24 school and did sex education for their high school. I also
25 supervised my students who were adult trainees in the field
213
1 as they do sex education programs, both at the school that my
2 children attended and at other schools.
3 By the way, Penn is one of two universities in the
4 whole world that gives a Ph.D. in human sexuality education.
5 And I've been on the faculty of that program since the
6 beginning. So actually a lot of my work is training teachers
7 to teach, as well as helping them develop curriculum.
8 Q Do you hold any other appointments, faculty appointments,
9 besides your appointment at Penn?
10 A Yes. I'm professor at LaSalle University in five minutes
11 (laughter) my class begins. I do have a student assistant
12 who's going to start the class. And I teach in a pastoral
13 counseling program there, and I teach both human sexuality
14 and I teach marital therapy, which is what I'm teaching
15 today.
16 Q Dr. Stayton, how closely are you supervised by the --
17 what religion are you a minister of?
18 A I'm an American Baptist.
19 Q And how closely are you supervised by your denomination?
20 A About five or six years ago my denomination commissioned
21 me as a minister in the field of human sexuality. I don't
22 know how many Baptists know that (laughter) but they did.
23 And as a result of that, I have a board of directors from my
24 denomination that both oversee all the work that I do as well
25 as set all my fees.
214
1 Q Do you hold any specialty certifications in the area of
2 sex education or sex therapy?
3 A I'm a certified sex educator and a certified sex
4 therapist through the American Association of Sex Educators,
5 Counselors and Therapists. I'm also a supervisor, a
6 certified supervisor. I'm also president-elect of that
7 organization.
8 Q The Government asked you about the Attorney General's
9 report --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- which is Defendant's Exhibit 80.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Can you just describe for me what the Attorney General's
14 report reputation is in the field of those who teach and work
15 in the area of sex education?
16 A First of all, let me say that there have been two
17 Commissions on Obscenity and Pornography, Presidents'
18 Commissions. One came out in 1970 which was started by
19 Johnson but was known as the Nixon Commission. And it was a
20 very well researched and documented Commission Report. They
21 had the best people in the field of human sexuality that
22 spent a couple of years gathering data, getting the most
23 reliable information that we have, and giving and put out
24 that report. It was an excellent report. It is still highly
25 regarded in the field.
215
1 The Commission on Obscenity and Pornography that
2 came out under Mr. Meese has -- in the field has absolutely
3 no positive reputation at all. It was felt to be politically
4 motivated -- in the field we believe that it was politically
5 motivated to counteract the very fine Commission Report that
6 came out much earlier.
7 Even our person, our sexologist, who was on that
8 Committee quit during the gathering of that because of the
9 way in which the Commission was doing their report.
10 Q Now, the Government asked you a number of questions about
11 whether it would be harmful for minors to access sexually
12 explicit information. Would you explain why you concluded
13 that it would not be harmful?
14 A First of all, we're born sexual. It's a fact. That's
15 who we are. And it's my belief that we then have a right to
16 know what it is to be a sexual person. I have a great value
17 on knowledge. I encourage my children at least to go through
18 high school, I wanted them to go to college, I encouraged
19 them to go to graduate school and I want them to take
20 continuing education courses and I want them to read
21 everything, because I have a value on knowledge. It saddens
22 me that we reverse that and say that somehow knowledge is bad
23 for people or for children. And I absolutely disagree with
24 that.
25 I believe that children have a right to know about
216
1 themselves as sexual beings, just as if a child was deaf,
2 they would have the right to get information on how to
3 communicate. If they were blind they would have a right to
4 the kinds of information that would help them to visualize
5 what the world is about. I believe that because we're sexual
6 beings, we also have a right to know about that. That's why
7 children are curious. That's why I want children to be able
8 to get the information. I believe it helps them to be not
9 only more responsible people, but to make more responsible
10 decisions as they get to the point where they have to make
11 decisions about themselves. And I want them to have the kind
12 of information that will help them to make that decision.
13 I believe that a lot of the things that happen to
14 children as they grow up and make the wrong decisions, a lot
15 of that, and this is well researched, is based upon the fact
16 that they're ignorant, and that they do not know what good
17 information there is out there, and so a lot of their acting
18 out is curiosity or rebellion against not knowing.
19 Q Who do you think ought to be the primary sex educator of
20 children?
21 A Absolutely the parents are the primary. There's -- I
22 think there is total agreement on that. Parents are the
23 primary educators of our children. The home, the church -- I
24 mean the church, the school, the YMCA, the organizations as a
25 part like Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, are only auxiliary
217
1 educators. I really want them also to do their
2 responsibility of providing that auxiliary education, because
3 our children are bombarded by sexuality on all sides, and I
4 want them to have good information and right information.
5 Q Do you think parents are part of sex education ought to
6 impart their own personal values to their children?
7 A Absolutely. I think that's a sacred right of parents. I
8 wanted to give my children my values, and impart that to
9 them. I didn't want them to get their values from somebody
10 else until they knew what my values were, and could weigh my
11 values against the other value systems that they're going to
12 get a lot of stuff from.
13 Q The Government asked you about the safer sex information
14 that you observed that was being spoken by the plaintiffs,
15 some of the plaintiffs that I represent. Why do you think
16 particularly for teenagers it's important that they have
17 access, indeed valuable for them to have access to safer sex
18 information?
19 A We know that unfortunately 20 percent of all children
20 across education, economic, racial guidelines are already
21 sexually active, 13 and 14-year-olds. We know that by 16 or
22 17, 50 percent of our kids are already sexually active. By
23 18 or 19, 85 percent. We do almost nothing to really prepare
24 these kids and to help them.
25 I agree with the former person who was here, I think
218
1 our teenagers are at highest risk for our sexually-
2 transmitted diseases, and I want to do everything I can to
3 protect them. And I think they have a right to the
4 information that will protect them.
5 One, I hope that by getting this information it will
6 help them to be more responsible in making that decision to
7 have sex. Second, I hope that when they do make that
8 decision they will then be able to use the right methods to
9 protect themselves.
10 Q Do you recall at your deposition that the Government
11 asked --
12 JUDGE SLOVITER: Excuse me just for a minute.
13 MR. HANSEN: Yes, your Honor.
14 JUDGE SLOVITER: If Dr. Stayton doesn't mind going
15 through his class, that's all right with the Court, but I
16 just wondered if you had a lot more of Dr. Stayton on
17 redirect that we shouldn't let him go and ask him to come
18 back tomorrow.
19 MR. HANSEN: I have no further questions, your
20 Honor.
21 JUDGE SLOVITER: I didn't mean to cut you off,
22 because the Court will have --
23 MR. HANSEN: Well then let me ask one more.
24 JUDGE SLOVITER: Yes, but the Court will have
25 questions.
219
1 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: I think he's going to miss his
2 class. Is your class effectively missed?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think so.
4 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay, all right. So it's a fait
5 accompli, and go on.
6 MR. HANSEN: And now I've forgotten my last
7 question, so I withdraw it. (Laughter.)
8 JUDGE SLOVITER: And there's no court reporter to
9 read it back, I'm sorry.
10 MR. HANSEN: I hadn't formulated it yet
11 unfortunately, but I don't have any more questions, your
12 Honor. Thank you.
13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Oh, I'm truly sorry.
14 JUDGE DALZELL: Recross?
15 JUDGE SLOVITER: Recross?
16 MS. RUSSOTTO: None, your Honor.
17 JUDGE DALZELL: You mentioned some percentages,
18 about 20 percent by age 13, --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE DALZELL: -- 50 percent by I think you said 15
21 or 16 --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE DALZELL: 85 percent by 18?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 JUDGE DALZELL: Where do those figures come from?
220
1 THE WITNESS: They come from a number of sources.
2 The Center For Population Options puts out figures like this.
3 The Planned Parenthood Association of America puts out
4 figures. There are dissertations that have looked at this
5 type of activity.
6 JUDGE DALZELL: Based on surveys, I take it, of
7 young people?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
9 JUDGE DALZELL: So this is self reported?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE DALZELL: That's all I have.
12 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: I just wanted to ask a question,
13 and not out of disrespect to the doctor's opinions, but I
14 guess if we had opening statements we would have known why he
15 was being presented here. Perhaps my two colleagues know,
16 but maybe the lateness of the hour, I don't.
17 MR. HANSEN: Yes, your Honor, I'd be happy to
18 address that. The plaintiffs' first arguments here have to
19 do with the effect of the Act in banning speech for adults,
20 and it is our view that the effect of the Act will be to end
21 up banning a large amount of valuable speech for adults. If
22 you agree with us on that argument, Dr. Stayton's testimony
23 will turn out to have been irrelevant. If, however, you
24 disagree with us on that argument, it is then our view that
25 the Government must show that it has a compelling interest in
221
1 preventing minors from having access to this information.
2 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: That's precisely what I thought
3 the reason was for your presenting him, but I wasn't sure in
4 light of your briefs, so I just wanted to get that straight
5 in my mind. Thank you.
6 MR. HANSEN: Thank you.
7 JUDGE SLOVITER: I have a question, Doctor.
8 THE WITNESS: Sure.
9 JUDGE SLOVITER: Your attention was called by the
10 Government to Exhibits 70 through 77 which are these
11 pictures.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Would you think that there are some
14 people in contemporary society that would deem these pictures
15 to be obscene or pornographic?
16 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I know them. (Laughter.)
17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. I think the end will follow.
18 Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Thank you. Appreciate it.
20 MR. HANSEN: If I might indulge the Court, I thought
21 of my one -- my last question. (Laughter.)
22 I apologize, but I had a minute to catch my
23 thoughts.
24 BY MR. HANSEN:
25 Q Dr. Stayton, do you recall at the deposition the
222
1 Government asked you based on your contacts with other people
2 in the field of sex and based on your ministry whether you
3 thought your views were out of the mainstream with respect to
4 people who are --
5 A Right.
6 Q -- sex educators and sex therapists. Could you tell me
7 whether you think your views are out of the mainstream in
8 that respect?
9 A Not at all. I go around to both seminaries and churches
10 and I work with denominational leaders, and I find that I'm
11 probably right in the middle as I work with churches. I have
12 tremendous -- I find that people generally are hungry to know
13 about their sexuality, and especially in light of their
14 religious convictions and that's -- I work a lot with that
15 area.
16 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: You believe that it ought to be
17 in the hands of parents?
18 THE WITNESS: Say it again?
19 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Ideally sex education ought to be
20 in the hands of parents --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: But it probably is not though, is
23 it?
24 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately what happens is the
25 parents abdicate their role. I would like to see us do more
223
1 training of parents to be sex educators. In fact we do that.
2 I'm doing that with a Methodist church this weekend.
3 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: All right.
4 MR. HANSEN: Thank you, your Honors.
5 JUDGE SLOVITER: We would suspend for the day, but
6 we'd like to see counsel in the back on some housekeeping
7 matters.
8 COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise.
9 (Proceedings adjourned for the day at 4:25 p.m.)
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