Testimony of Patricia Nell Warren -- publisher, Wildcat Press
March 21, 1996
25 MS. BEESON: Good afternoon, your Honors. I am Ann
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1 Beeson and I'm another of the attorneys for the ACLU
2 plaintiffs in this case. And we now call as our next witness
3 Patricia Nell Warren.
4 We have been informed by the Government that they do
5 not wish to cross-examine Ms. Warren, and so we therefore
6 offer into evidence the affidavit which she signed on the
7 15th of March and which was filed in this case on the 19th.
8 JUDGE SLOVITER: Is there any objection by the
9 Government?
10 MS. RUSSOTTO: No, your Honor, this is basically the
11 same situation as with Mr. Kuromiya. We're prepared to
12 accept the declaration being entered into evidence, but
13 subject to our ability to submit deposition testimony.
14 JUDGE SLOVITER: And is there any objection to that
15 by the plaintiffs?
16 MR. COPPOLINO: No objection.
17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay, fine.
18 MS. BEESON: We now make her available for the Court
19 to question, if they wish.
20 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Good afternoon, ma'am. Would you
21 please state and spell your name for the record?
22 THE WITNESS: Patricia, P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A, Nell, N-E-
23 L-L, Warren, W-A-R-R-E-N.
24 PATRICIA NELL WARREN, Affirmed.
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
186
1 JUDGE DALZELL: Ms. Warren, one thing I'm not clear
2 about with respect to Wildcat Press, you are -- you have an
3 interest in Wildcat Press, as I understand in your
4 declaration?
5 THE WITNESS: A little bit of history, I am an
6 author that has published a number of books over the years
7 and I recently made a decision to go independent and to
8 publish my own books instead of relying on trade publishers.
9 So Wildcat Press is my own company co-owned with a business
10 partner. I publish my own books, new books, old books,
11 getting them back in print. We will also publish books by
12 other people. It is what is referred to in the trade as a
13 small press.
14 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. Now, Wildcat Press as you say
15 in your declaration has a Web site, right?
16 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
17 JUDGE DALZELL: Now, your books, let's just talk
18 about your books. What do you have on that site, excerpts?
19 I wasn't clear. Or chapters or summaries or what about your
20 books?
21 THE WITNESS: We do two things with the Web site.
22 One, it's a place where people can come, they can learn more
23 about the company, my books, what they're about. They can
24 also buy books directly off of the Web site through a credit
25 card ordering apparatus. So there are two excerpts, the
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1 first chapters from two of my best-known books that are
2 available for people to access and read and possibly interest
3 them in buying the books.
4 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay, and how long are those
5 excerpts?
6 THE WITNESS: They are -- consist of the entire
7 first chapters of the books, so they are like one long
8 subpage.
9 JUDGE DALZELL: So I guess as the copyright owner at
10 least of those books you could make a decision, could you
11 not, to put your whole book on line?
12 THE WITNESS: I could.
13 JUDGE DALZELL: Would you ever do that?
14 THE WITNESS: If I thought it was a good idea, I
15 definitely could do that.
16 JUDGE DALZELL: All right. But at this point you're
17 using the on line service to sell books, correct?
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 JUDGE DALZELL: You mention in your declaration that
20 the credit card company, as I understand it, charges a dollar
21 service fee --
22 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
23 JUDGE DALZELL: -- for processing. Is that for the
24 verification, as a fee for that, or what is that dollar?
25 THE WITNESS: That is the fee for the -- that we are
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1 charged for each user who wants to log into that particular
2 feature and use their credit card. It's a secure ordering
3 device. I believe there are several on the market. This one
4 is called First Virtual, which they can use a MasterCard or
5 Visa credit card. And we pay a fee for them to use that each
6 time it occurs.
7 JUDGE DALZELL: Were you here this morning?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE DALZELL: You may have heard a lot of colloquy
10 about verifying credit cards. At your Web site, can you
11 verify on line or do you have to go off line to verify?
12 THE WITNESS: I'm not a technical person, and I'm
13 not actually the technical person that runs this whole thing,
14 so I can't tell you exactly how it works, but it is handled
15 by the server that we operate off of, which is Southern
16 California Gay Wired, and they're the ones that process it.
17 That's mostly what I can tell you.
18 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. So this server, Gay Wired,
19 handles all of that for your company?
20 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
21 JUDGE DALZELL: Another line of questions I have for
22 you that I'm very curious about, you say at paragraph 17 of
23 your declaration that you've helped create an on line
24 magazine, an E-zine as you call it called Youth Arts; is that
25 correct?
189
1 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
2 JUDGE DALZELL: And you said that you've also
3 created print magazines, a print magazine called Campus
4 Courier; is that correct?
5 THE WITNESS: I assisted in creating that.
6 Actually it never came to fruition, but that was many years
7 ago.
8 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, let me ask you this. This is
9 what I'm most curious about. Is it easier to start an E-zine
10 than a print magazine?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE DALZELL: Why is that?
13 THE WITNESS: Because the material costs of putting
14 out a print magazine, standard print media, you're looking at
15 all of the costs of photography, and art and paper costs and
16 printing costs and so forth. It generally is much more
17 expensive than the cost of putting up a publication on line.
18 JUDGE DALZELL: And where is the E-zine posted? How
19 do you access it?
20 THE WITNESS: Through a URL.
21 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. Thank you.
22 JUDGE SLOVITER: Judge Buckwalter.
23 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: I'm still looking through --
24 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. Is it accurate that your
25 material would be considered gay and lesbian literature, the
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1 material that you authored? I gathered that from the
2 declaration, is that correct?
3 THE WITNESS: Are you asking about my personal
4 writing?
5 JUDGE SLOVITER: Your personal books, yes.
6 THE WITNESS: Not all of my books, but most of what
7 I'm known for would be called gay literature.
8 JUDGE SLOVITER: And would that include also books
9 like Truman Capote's Other Voices, Other Rooms and some other
10 books by Truman Capote?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, let me -- I'd like to make sure
12 I understand your question you're asking.
13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Would that be considered gay and
14 lesbian literature?
15 THE WITNESS: I haven't read that particular book,
16 but it has been mentioned in that connection, as far as I
17 remember.
18 JUDGE SLOVITER: And is it your understanding that
19 literature in that genre might be viewed as subject to the
20 two provisions of the statute that are at issue in this case?
21 THE WITNESS: I'm concerned about people in this
22 country who view the entire subject of writing about gay and
23 lesbian life as patently offensive. Their opinions and
24 feelings go way beyond the questions of the seven dirty words
25 of the FCC, and I am concerned that there could conceivably
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1 be complaints made on the basis that the entire subject
2 matter is patently offensive.
3 JUDGE SLOVITER: And at the moment to your knowledge
4 is such literature available to young people in public
5 libraries, people under 18?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you.
8 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: And you're concerned about
9 patently offensive, even with the extra language that's added
10 in this statute there? I mean it just doesn't say patently
11 offensive, it says patently offensive, sexual or excretory
12 activities or organs. Is that still a concern to you?
13 THE WITNESS: My concern is with how some individual
14 or group of individuals might choose to interpret that in the
15 course of bringing charges against me with the Justice
16 Department.
17 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Okay. I don't think I have any
18 other questions.
19 JUDGE SLOVITER: Have our questions elicited any
20 questions from counsel?
21 MS. RUSSOTTO: No, your Honor.
22 MR. HANSEN: No, your Honor.
23 JUDGE DALZELL: Thank you for coming up.
24 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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1 (Witness excused.)
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