IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                            FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA
                                             - - -
                 AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES      :  CIVIL ACTION NO. 96-963-M
                 UNION, et al                  :
                                   Plaintiffs  :
                                               :
                             v.                :  Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
                                               :  March 21, 1996
                 JANET RENO, in her official   :  
                 capacity as ATTORNEY GENERAL  :
                 OF THE UNITED STATES,         :
                                   Defendant   :
                 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                                        HEARING BEFORE:
                               THE HONORABLE DOLORES K. SLOVITER,
                          CHIEF JUDGE, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
                                     FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT
                               THE HONORABLE RONALD L. BUCKWALTER
                                 THE HONORABLE STEWART DALZELL
                                  UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGES
                                             - - -
                 APPEARANCES:
                 For the Plaintiffs:  CHRISTOPHER A. HANSEN, ESQUIRE
                                      MARJORIE HEINS, ESQUIRE
                                      ANN BEESON, ESQUIRE
                                      American Civil Liberties Union
                                      132 West 43rd Street
                                      New York, NY  10036
                                             -and-
                                      STEFAN PRESSER, ESQUIRE
                                      American Civil Liberties Union
                                      123 S. 9th Street, Suite 701
                                      Philadelphia, PA  19107
                                             -and-
                 For the ALA          BRUCE J. ENNIS, JR., ESQUIRE
                 Plaintiffs:          ANN M. KAPPLER, ESQUIRE
                                      JOHN B. MORRIS, JR., ESQUIRE
                                      Jenner and Block
                                      601 13th Street, N.W.
                                      Washington, DC  20005
                                             - - -
                                                                             2
                 APPEARANCES:  (Continued)
                 For the Defendant:   ANTHONY J. COPPOLINO, ESQUIRE
                                      PATRICIA RUSSOTTO, ESQUIRE
                                      JASON R. BARON, ESQUIRE
                                      THEODORE C. HIRT
                                      Department of Justice
                                      901 E. Street, N.W.
                                      Washington, DC  20530
                                             -and-
                                      MARK KMETZ, ESQUIRE
                                      U.S. Attorney's Office
                                      615 Chestnut Street, Suite 1250
                                      Philadelphia, PA  19106
                                             - - -
                 Also Present:         MICHAEL KUNZ
                                       Clerk of the Court for the
                                       Eastern District of Pennsylvania
                                             - - -
                 Deputy Clerks:        Thomas Clewley
                                       Matthew J. Higgins
                 Audio Operator:       Andrea L. Mack
                 Transcribed by:       Geraldine C. Laws
                                       Grace Williams
                                       Tracey Williams
                                       Laws Transcription Service
                 (Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording;
                 transcript provided by computer-aided transcription service.)
                                                                             3
     1                    (Whereupon the following occurred in open court at
     2           9:32 o'clock a.m.:)
     3                    CLERK OF COURT KUNZ:  Oyez, oyez, oyez, all manner
     4           of persons having any matter to present before the Honorable
     5           Dolores K. Sloviter, Chief Judge of the United States Court
     6           of Appeals for the Third Circuit and the Honorable Ronald L.
     7           Buckwalter and the Honorable Stewart Dalzell, Judges of the
     8           United States District Court for the Eastern District of
     9           Pennsylvania may at present appear and they shall be heard. 
    10           God save the United States and this Honorable Court.  Court
    11           is now in session, please be seated.
    12                    COUNSEL:  Good morning, your Honor.
    13                    JUDGE SLOVITER:  Good morning.  This is the hearing
    14           before the statutory Three-Judge Court on the request for a
    15           preliminary injunction in the consolidated action of American
    16           Civil Liberties Union and its co-plaintiffs versus Reno, No.
    17           96-963, and American Library Association and its co-
    18           plaintiffs versus Department of Justice, No. 96-1458.
    19                    Judge Buckwalter and I want to thank Judge Dalzell
    20           for his case management of all preliminary matters and all
    21           three Judges want to thank the parties for their concerted
    22           efforts to expedite the proceedings by entering into
    23           stipulations and we want to thank the plaintiffs for
    24           presenting their testimony in chief by affidavits which are
    25           available for public and press view.
                                                                             4
     1                    We -- now, there have been various requests for
     2           photographing the proceedings and I thought it might be, we
     3           thought it might be appropriate to make a statement at the
     4           inception.
     5                    In September 1994 the Judicial Conference of the
     6           United States voted not to permit the taking of photographs
     7           and radio and television coverage of proceedings in the
     8           United States District Courts, whether those proceedings are
     9           civil or criminal.
    10                    When the Judicial Conference voted last week to
    11           permit each Court of Appeals to decide whether and under what
    12           circumstances to permit the taking of photographs and radio
    13           and television arguments of appellate arguments it reiterated
    14           its prior policy with respect to the District Courts.
    15                    This proceeding is a three-judge District Court
    16           proceeding.  I am a member of the Judicial Conference of the
    17           United States and Chief Judge Cahn of the Eastern District of
    18           Pennsylvania is a member of the Judicial Conference.
    19                    Whatever the views of individual members of the
    20           Eastern District on the issue of cameras in the Federal
    21           courtroom or the collective views on that issue of that
    22           District Court which was one of the pilot courts during the
    23           project and whatever the personal views of the Judges on this
    24           panel on that issue, we will abide by the vote of the
    25           Judicial Conference of the United States, whether binding or
                                                                             5
     1           hortatory.
     2                    We are privileged to be part of the great
     3           institution that is the Federal Judiciary of the United
     4           States.
     5                    Okay, we will proceed with cross-examination of the
     6           plaintiff's witness by the Government and we ask the
     7           Government at the inception is there any -- we understand
     8           that the first witness is -- and we'll ask the Government,
     9           whom are you calling?  The Government.
    10                    (Laughter.)
    11                    JUDGE SLOVITER:  The Court of Appeals, go ahead.
    12                    MR. COPPOLINO:  I'm sorry, your Honor, your
    13           question?
    14                    JUDGE SLOVITER:  Your first witness?
    15                    MR. COPPOLINO:  Would be Scott Bradner, I believe,
    16           your Honor.
    17                    JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay.  And do you accept Mr.
    18           Bradner as an expert?
    19                    MR. COPPOLINO:  Yes, we do, your Honor.
    20                    JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, thank you.  Then proceed.
    21                    JUDGE DALZELL:   Oh, yes, Mr. Coppolino, just one
    22           housekeeping, important housekeeping matter.  We were most
    23           grateful to the parties for the extensive stipulations that
    24           were submitted that will probably save us a week of testimony
    25           but there was -- and I don't criticize you for this -- there
                                                                             6
     1           was a qualification at the beginning of the stipulating
     2           having to do with the fact that discovery of the plaintiff's
     3           case was not concluded and therefore it says that no party
     4           waives its right to submit information inconsistent with its
     5           terms should it learn thereof through discovery, disclosure
     6           or other investigation.
     7                    Now, I take it that by April 1st, that is to say
     8           when the plaintiffs complete their case, that the Government
     9           will be in a position to tell us yea or nay whether it indeed
    10           accepts every paragraph of those stipulations.
    11                    MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, I believe I can
    12           represent that the purpose of the stipulation on the part of
    13           both parties was to indicate that it was applicable to the
    14           entire PI hearing.  And I believe that the specific purpose
    15           being addressed here is that as the case proceeds beyond the
    16           PI stage of the merits and discovery is taken at that time
    17           which indicates that some of the statements in here are
    18           incorrect or inaccurate upon further testing that at that
    19           point these particular stipulations would not apply.
    20                    That's my understanding.
    21                    JUDGE DALZELL:  All right.  So therefore you can
    22           represent to us now that for purposes of this preliminary
    23           injunction hearing that we may take the stipulation without
    24           qualification.
    25                    MR. COPPOLINO:  Yes.
                                                                             7
     1                    JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, fine, that's very helpful. 
     2           Thank you.
     3                    Okay, do you want to -- it's Mr. Bradner, is it?
     4                    MR. MORRIS:  Yes, your Honor, my name is John
     5           Morris, co-counsel for the ALA plaintiffs and plaintiffs call
     6           as their first witness Scott O. Bradner.
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